The Tragic Beigeification Of The Sky

"Margin Of Error" (marginoferror) 04/09/2015 at 12:19 • Filed to: PLANELOPNIK, ESSAY

3

88

Air travel was once glamorous and exciting, but with the demise of great planes such as the DC-9, the Lockheed L-1011 and the cargo conversion of all remaining MD-11's, flying as as become as soul-sucking as driving an automatic Toyota Camry in a Costco parking lot.

Just as automobiles, planes are all moving toward the same model of efficiency, quietness and self driving capabilities. The results are appalling, twin-jet aircraft with the same shape and specs, just different names.

Air travelers used to be thrilled to board a 707 or a DC-8 because they stood out. The noise of the 4 engines was like music to our ears and the black smoke emitted was a clear reminder that serious business was going on there.

Air travel reach its apogee with the Concorde, a loud supersonic plane designed to look good and make a strong statement.

Travelling in a Concorde was like cruising around in a Bugatti very. It was fast, comfortable, rare and ostentatious, as air travel should be. Sadly, environmentalists and Camry-driving people living near the airports eventually had their ways and the Concorde got phased out.

This marked the beginning of the end for air travel enthusiasts as most exciting planes got the ax as well

The 727 production was ended in 1984, replaced by the 737-500

1984 was also the last year of the mighty "Tristar". Disappointed with the lack of enthiusasm Lockheed just rage-quit commercial aviation and went back designing fighter jets.

1987 is another important milestone in what I call the "Beigekrieg". As McDonnell Douglas was phasing out its flagship DC-10 tri-jet, Airbus was taking boring-ness a step further with its "fly-by-wire" A320, a knock-off of the 737 with even less driving involvement.

One of the main "feature" of the A320 was its "glass-cockpit", a fancy terms for lack of proper gauges, knobs and switches.

Pictured here is the "glass-cockpit". Note the lack of steerings.

Pictured here is a proper cockpit (DC-8)

As of today, the only commercial aircraft in production with more than 2 engines are the Boeing 747-8, a relic from the 60's and the state-of-the-art Airbus A-380, a two-story plane that looks like a fat 737 and that can fly itself without human intervention.

In both cases, sales are not doing so well and there are rumors stating that the A-380 may be short-lived and replaced with yet another stretched version of the A-330, a big twin-jet that is just a knock-off of the equally boring Boeing 777.

The future looks bleak for air travel enthusiasts, as all future aircraft are likely to be quiet twin-jets with the same basic shape, just like FWD midsize sedans. However, It's not too late to fly cool planes. American Airlines and Allegiant are still flying rear-engined MD-80's, which are basically stretch DC-9 from the early 60's.

In conclusion, it's a very bad era for air travelers, as airlines are more interested in pleasing their share-holders rather then their real clients, the airplane enthusiasts.

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

/revision/latest?cb=20130116021126

Manuél Ferrari > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:24

1

omg dat Concorde

i love it so much

spanfucker retire bitch > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:26

3

Are you fucking serious?

Margin Of Error > spanfucker retire bitch 04/09/2015 at 12:28

0

Relevant username

spanfucker retire bitch > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:30

9

Airplanes are for mass transport, not for Sunday drives in your Miata. Complaining about planes being quieter, cabins being more ergonomic and easier to use and engines using less fuel thanks to better engine placement and aerodynamics is like complaining the mass transit bus doesn't have the W16 engine from the Veyron and a sweet whale tail.

This is the most absurd thing I've ever read on Oppo.

Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:32

1

And now she spends her days in Barbados.

Margin Of Error > spanfucker retire bitch 04/09/2015 at 12:32

0

That's what they want you to believe.

spanfucker retire bitch > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:32

4

Poe's Law makes it very difficult for me to tell whether you're serious or not.

ttyymmnn > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:32

1

The results are appalling, twin-jet aircraft with the same shape and specs, just different names.

Form follows function, especially when efficiency and economics are driving the industry. Four engines are neat, but when you can do more with less—and less fuel—why keep them around? Rather than wallow in how cool older aircraft were (and they were, don't get me wrong), I'd rather marvel at the incredible efficiency of the high-bypass turbofan, and the fact that you can fly almost 10,000 miles in a 777 on one tank of gas. But there is still part of me who finds this older cartoon both hilarious and poignant:

Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:33

0

Side steerings, like F-16, ja?

For Sweden > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:33

0

I fear that one day I will no longer fly on rear-engined airplanes :(

SLR999 > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:35

0

I prefer my planes safe, thanks.

The 787 has a carbon-fibre heavy construction and incredibly advanced avionics. It's a great place to be for a transatlantic haul.

Margin Of Error > ttyymmnn 04/09/2015 at 12:35

0

Very true.

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 04/09/2015 at 12:35

1

Recent events make this very dark

For Sweden > spanfucker retire bitch 04/09/2015 at 12:36

0

complaining the mass transit bus doesn't have the W16 engine from the Veyron and a sweet whale tail.

You don't complain about this?

MultiplaOrgasms > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:36

2

...

Cé hé sin > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole 04/09/2015 at 12:36

0

Yes.

spanfucker retire bitch > For Sweden 04/09/2015 at 12:37

2

I live in 'murica. I don't take Mass transit. Because it barely exists around here.

But if I did, I probably would wish it could accelerate like a bat out of hell. Less time on the bus = better.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > For Sweden 04/09/2015 at 12:40

0

You ride mass transit? I feel sorry for you.

ttyymmnn > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole 04/09/2015 at 12:41

3

I'm not a pilot, but I'm always leery of that side stick configuration, mostly because there is no feedback between the two sticks. One pilot has no idea what the other pilot is doing. This was noted as a possible contributing factor in the crash of AF 447 . I heard an interview with an old Lufthansa pilot who spoke of the difference between Airbus and Boeing on this subject. He described the center yoke used in Boeing as "more traditional, more pilot-centered." Centered as in the pilot was still the primary factor in the cockpit, not the computer (though modern Boeing jets are just as automated as their Airbus counterparts). A pilot would probably tell me different, but it seems to me that there's just something about "driving" something that big with a traditional steering wheel. I think it addresses human nature better than a joystick, especially when the shit hits the fan and you have fly by the seat of your pants. Although, Capt. Sully was flying an A320.

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 04/09/2015 at 12:41

0

I hadn't thought of that, but you are correct.

TheHondaBro > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole 04/09/2015 at 12:41

0

There's one in Seattle as well, near Boeing Field.

Margin Of Error > For Sweden 04/09/2015 at 12:42

0

Bombardier is still making the CRJ, but I'm not sure I would trust a Canadian plane.

Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole > TheHondaBro 04/09/2015 at 12:43

0

At Boeing Field at the Museum of Flight. Been on it a few times. G-BOAG

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:43

1

Sadly, environmentalists and Camry-driving people living near the airports eventually had their ways and the Concorde got phased out.

Yep, that's it. It has nothing to do with the fact that it was very expensive, less profitable than subsonic first class, and that sales plummeted after its first and only crash and 9/11...

TheHondaBro > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole 04/09/2015 at 12:44

0

Yeah, and I managed to squeeze myself through it when I saw it.

For Sweden > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:44

1

You shouldn't trust Canadian anything.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:44

0

I see a bit of sidestick here...

pauljones > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:44

5

I don't always agree with your opinions, and I certainly don't in this instance. There has, in fact, never been a better time to be a frequent air traveler. New planes that have hit the market are worlds better than they have ever been. They are safer, more efficient (which leads to lower ticket costs), and far more focused on making passengers happy. Whereas once jumbo jets were packed like sardine cans with little more than dank lighting, a porta-potty, and juice boxes to comfort passengers, they are now astoundingly luxurious, even in coach class. Every little detail is painstakingly considered and planned to make passengers as comfortable as possible, right down to seemingly stupid little details like ambient lighting. As small as these details may seem, when added together, they make a remarkable difference in comfort.

The 787 in particular is an astonishing leap forward. Now that it has gotten through its rather prolonged period of teething issues, it's so advanced that it makes many earlier jets look like the Wright Flyer in comparison.

Quite frankly, anyone who is traveling by air simply doesn't give a shit about what the aircraft looks like. They care about a comfortable trip. The drive to develop the Concord was not to be glamorous or to create something elegant and beautiful - it was to improve travel comfort by making the journey, and the the time spent in potentially less than ideal comfort, as short as possible. Those shareholders you speak of? Guess what: they're customers. Customers who care about comfort and efficiency.

Don't like the exterior design? Too bad.

To start with, in terms of general configuration, they look the way they do for a reason: it's the most practical and efficient way of doing their intended job. In terms of distinguishing different types of aircraft from each other, there are very much distinguishing features, just as there are for distinguishing 67-68 Camaros from 69-70 Camaros. If you don't see them, it's not because they aren't there - it's simply because you are unaware of them.

These days, many of the passenger jets being put out are nothing short of impressive. The 787 in particular is an astonishing leap forward. Now that it has gotten through its rather prolonged period of teething issues, it's so advanced that it makes many earlier jets look like the Wright Flyer in comparison.

You're well off the mark here.

Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole > TheHondaBro 04/09/2015 at 12:45

1

Lol, tight squees for me as well.

pauljones > For Sweden 04/09/2015 at 12:46

1

Except poutine. Always trust the poutine.

Margin Of Error > pauljones 04/09/2015 at 12:51

0

I disagree with your first paragraph. Legroom, nice service and fine dining used to be part of the experience. Now it is mostly claustrophobia, cold sandwiches and fuck you's.

I will now proceed with the rest of your comment.

ttyymmnn > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 04/09/2015 at 12:52

2

Shhh! Don't clutter up this demagoguery with pesky facts.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:55

2

You can get better than that if you're willing to pay for it. Regular people did not fly planes back then.

Margin Of Error > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 04/09/2015 at 12:58

0

I see that your knowledge of the subject is lacking, but it's ok.

Sales plummeted in the 70's after Boeing failed to build a competing aircraft and lobbied to have the Concorde to go subsonic over the continent, then most orders were cancelled.

The production stopped in 1979 after only 14 non-prototype units built.

The Concorde crash in France occurred in 2001

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 12:58

0

Not sales of the Concorde. That has nothing to do with operations. Sales of seats on it.

RallyWrench > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:00

0

I don't think it has as much to do with the planes as it does the regulatory environment & increased number of travelers. Having to herd through an airport like cattle from check to check, often for hours, has taken the glamour & excitement out of it. Getting on the plane, any plane, is a relief at that point.

pauljones > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:00

3

So, your counter-argument it to post an old-picture of a first-class flight, and compare it to coach-class today, rather than first-class today?

Fail.

Also, how old are you? If you think those old jets were so glamorous and awesome, you're probably not old enough to have actually experienced them. Their replacements are objectively better in every imaginable way.

For comparison, here's basic First Class in a 787:

Here are a few ways that that can be upgraded if the line so chooses (and many do):

I respect that you have an opinion, but in this case, your opinion is due to lack of experience and knowledge rather than rational comparison.

Margin Of Error > pauljones 04/09/2015 at 13:10

0

I don't see why my age is important, but for the sake of transparency, I'm 24.

Is it important to have actually experienced something to be allowed to talk about it ? Many people here are talking about high end cars and never actually drive them.

I read a lot about aviation and I think I'm knowledgeable enough to write about it. For the record, the only I flew was the night I hit a guard rail with my fixie after too much Peaschnapps.

spanfucker retire bitch > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:15

1

You of course wouldn't be so disingenuous as to not account for inflation for how much those seats in that picture of your cost in today's money, would you?

No, that would just be rude.

Margin Of Error > TheHondaBro 04/09/2015 at 13:20

0

It's ironic considering that Boeing conspired to make the Concorde fail

Kevin Barrett > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:21

1

Will you be reviewing buses and light rails next? What about "driving involvement" when you have 50, 100, or 200 peoples' lives in your hands?

Margin Of Error > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 04/09/2015 at 13:30

0

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but this sounds like a sweet recovery.

Margin Of Error > spanfucker retire bitch 04/09/2015 at 13:32

0

If someone is being rude in that comment section, it's not me.

Margin Of Error > SLR999 04/09/2015 at 13:36

0

It won't save you, just lighter and more fuel efficient.

pauljones > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:37

2

It's one thing when you're asserting a numbers game; i.e., I think this car would be faster around a track than that car because of engine specs, brake specs, suspension specs, etc. But when you're asserting arguments such as, "The flying experience is so much worse today than it used to be," then yes, it's actually important to have experienced it so that you have a real base of knowledge from which to draw educated opinions. Thus, age matters in this instance. Even if you've flown first-class today (which you admit you've never done), odds are you simply aren't old enough to have experienced first-class travel on the planes that you've made it a point to cite in your original post. As such, you can't really draw a meaningful comparison.

You seem to know about what different types of planes have existed, but that's far from the whole story. Learn a little bit more about the planes themselves - their history, their use, and their records. If you do, you'll find that the DC-10 was actually a pretty terrible aircraft, even by the standards of its time. It over-promised and under-delivered, and had a reputation for being difficult to maintain and less safe to operate than its contemporaries. You'll also find other odd little facts. For instance, as long we're talking about the DC-10, did you know that the DC-10 actually plays a surprising role in the crackpot theology of Scientology? That old nutcase, L. Ron Hubbard, stated that humans were brought to earth on space ships that looked exactly like DC-10s. Definitely a weird and useless fact, but also the kind of thing that you learn when you start delving into the history of theses planes. If you read a lot about aviation, start looking for the little details that differentiate different aircraft. Once you start paying attention, you'd be surprised how easy it is to find them, and how many of them there are.

But as those infomercials say, "...that's not all!" An important aspect of understanding aviation is to understand the history and operation of the industry behind it. After all, the industry is very much what drives design, as the industry is what makes the demand.

In short, the assertions that you make here simply don't take into account much, if any, of the relevant knowledge and factual data that is behind all of the things that you are trying to address.

I love aviation, but it's a great big world with a lot of different facets. It's a lot more complex than you're seeing it as right now.

pauljones > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:41

1

Context, bud. You have to understand context. That part where he referenced "...less profitable than subsonic first-class?"

Yeah, that's the implicit assertion that he's speaking about ticket sales rather than vehicle sales.

pauljones > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:43

2

So, you don't consider something like, say, protection from the effect of lightning strikes to be something that could save you on a plane?

Interesting.

pauljones > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:44

3

Wait, what!?

No, no they didn't. The failure of the Concorde had nothing to do with Boeing, and everything to do with the incredible obstacles to operating supersonic aircraft on a regular basis.

I'm not sure what it is that you've been reading so much about in terms of aviation, but you may want to vary your sources a bit here.

Margin Of Error > pauljones 04/09/2015 at 13:46

0

Can you site one occurrence where an aircraft crashed due to a lightning strike ?

SLR999 > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:47

0

The avionics/glass cockpit style that you dislike will help.

Margin Of Error > SLR999 04/09/2015 at 13:49

0

Autonomous cars will probably save you as well, are you looking forward to it ?

pauljones > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:50

2

Yes, yes I can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Fl…

At this point, I'm just not sure whether you're trolling or whether you simply think you know a lot more than you actually do.

Margin Of Error > pauljones 04/09/2015 at 13:52

0

That was in 1963.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-h…

pauljones > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:58

2

Yes it was. You asked for an example. I gave you an example. And coincidentally, the aircraft in question happened to be one of those glorious 707s that you lavish such praise on. You know why all that stuff in the article you presented came about, and why there aren't many modern examples of an aircraft being downed by lighting? It's because after accidents in older, inferior aircraft like the 707, engineers learned and planned new safety features and techniques into modern aircraft. Those new safety and features and techniques are directly responsible for saving lives.

On the other hand, you've successfully convinced me that you simply have no clue.

Destructive Tester > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 13:59

1

If my options are flying on a "boring" 737 or an "interesting" MD-80, I'm taking boring every damn time...

V8Demon - Prefers Autos for drag racing. Fite me! > For Sweden 04/09/2015 at 13:59

0

I welcome that day. MD80. Bumpiest plane EVER!!!

Margin Of Error > Destructive Tester 04/09/2015 at 13:59

0

Any particular reason ?

SLR999 > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 14:08

3

As long as I can drive whatever I want sure. But flying in a tube of 300 souls, I think the most important thing isn't driver enjoyment.

MrDakka > SLR999 04/09/2015 at 14:13

0

I would be very wary of the 787. That composite construction is all very well and good, but the fatigue strength is a bit of an unknown. There's not a lot of fatigue data and behaviour on carbon fiber composites especially for aerodynamic structures this large, so I would bet a large amount of money that the design engineers overengineered it and used large margins of safety, but that only does so much. Plus I've heard the occasional horror stories by former Boeing composites engineers about the composites delaminating and the epoxies dissolving worryingly quickly when exposed to hydraulic fluid/jet fuel/etc. while undergoing fatigue cycle tests. Take it with a grain of salt, but some food for thought.

ranwhenparked > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 14:19

0

I'm still not convinced that the sight of a DC-8 didn't trigger some negative repressed memories from Incident II, so it's probably better for everyone's mental health that they're very rare now.

SLR999 > MrDakka 04/09/2015 at 14:20

0

Interesting to consider.

That said these airframes are flying with many of the more distinguished carriers and are probably getting a lot of proactive supervision from Boeing personnel. I'm less worried about a Comet scenario, though it has crossed my mined.

MrDakka > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 14:24

2

Of course those airliners are beige econoboxes. How else are you supposed to be remined that you're poor and will never be good enough. Those airliners are for you poor plebes. Us real money types roll around in ultra-luxe custom airliners with own personal wait staff.

Of course, on the other hand, the damn ricers are always trying to stance and VTEC everything and don't know when to stop...

Destructive Tester > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 14:24

1

Noisy, rough ride, cramped cabin, among others...

MrDakka > SLR999 04/09/2015 at 14:30

0

I really hope that CF airframe construction does take off; it offers a lot of benefits and plus hopefully it'll more solidly characterize fatigue behavior for composites. All that data...

SLR999 > MrDakka 04/09/2015 at 14:31

1

I can't wait for my CF 2025 F-150.

Two Drink Minimum > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 14:33

0

Man, I miss the tri-jets. 727, L-1011 and maybe even a little the DC-10. I used to love going to airports and spotting all the different aircraft, and I recall one flight where we actually disembarked from the rear air-stairs of a 727. So cool.

One jet you missed: The old BAE-146. Favorite plane ever.

Jet travel has definitely grown more homogeneous, but it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. The 747 stands out as arguably the greatest civilian airframe of all time. It's unfair of you to deride it as "a relic of the 60s" when the type continues to advance and prosper to this day. Sure, less of these are being sold as long-range twin engines like the 787 and 777 offer more efficient operation, but the 747 is still out there, and will be for years to come. And as for the A-380. Yeah it's big 'n ugly, but it is a straight-up, four-engined beast of an airplane.

There is joy to be had. The 787 is launching a revolution in aircraft design. The massive power plants on planes like the 380 and 777 dwarf anything that came from your golden age of jet travel. And the engineering that goes into the new airframes is truly remarkable, if not always immediately visible.

Margin Of Error > MrDakka 04/09/2015 at 14:48

0

That's some scary shit

Margin Of Error > ranwhenparked 04/09/2015 at 14:52

0

What is Incident II ?

ranwhenparked > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 14:57

0

Its when we received the R6 implant, they cover it in the Wall of Fire.

Margin Of Error > ranwhenparked 04/09/2015 at 14:59

0

Is it some Scientology shit ?

Cé hé sin > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 15:10

0

"Legroom, nice service and fine dining used to be part of the experience."

They used to be, but sadly so were frequent crashes. Older isn't, in this case, better.

Cé hé sin > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 04/09/2015 at 15:13

0

Although, once BA announced that they had to phase it out they found that they could soon sell all remaining seats!

Cé hé sin > pauljones 04/09/2015 at 15:19

1

Yes, everyone jumped on the "it's so noisy it'll cause instant death to all who hear it" bandwagon and so it couldn't fly supersonic over populated areas, added to which you had the early 1970s oil crisis and environmental concerns so airlines decided they couldn't be seen to want to fly it. Plus, it's alleged, flights over the US were banned so as to support US industry.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 15:26

0

I still get excited for air travel, but that may be because I only fly once every few years. It's neat seeing the wing "bounce" around in the air and seeing the amazing efficiency and engineering that is in these huge things.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > MrDakka 04/09/2015 at 15:48

0

It is an entirely different realm, but composites have proven themselves quite well in the hockey arena. In the space of only a few years players went from wood sticks to aluminum shafts with wood blades to one piece CF sticks. That progression happened because the CF sticks give better performance at a lighter weight. It seems much less common to see broken sticks during the play even at the pro level. The old wood sticks would often shatter on a shot and that is less common now. It seems that most sticks that I see get broken break as the result of impacts like getting slashed.

From personal experience they are also significantly more durable than either wood sticks or two piece sticks. I would use up 6-7 wood sticks per season, and replace almost that many blades when using aluminum shafts. Now I get at least a full season if not closer to two seasons out of a CF stick. Of the ones I've replaced it is mostly because the blades get chewed up from skates and start delaminating at the tip. Granted all of this is anecdotal and not empirical evidence, but it is something to look at with regard to composite behavior in a pretty harsh environment.

Here we have a fairly recent wood stick.

Then one of the pretty early Easton aluminum sticks. Ironically the only aluminum stick images I can find are auction images of signed sticks.

And finally the current state of the art one piece carbon fiber stick.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 15:54

1

I for one welcome our high tech, carbon fiber, fuel efficient, aerodynamic wizard overlords. Anything that can reduce the price of a ticket without eating into my leg and elbow room is a welcome improvement.

Having flown on the 787 I can tell you that the experience is much more enjoyable than any other airplane I've been on including the DC-10, MD-80, MD-90, 727 or any other nostalgia machine you care to mention. The ride is better, the creature comforts are better and the planes are getting safer.

Frankly IDGAF if the pilot likes flying an old fashioned hot-rod, I want to ride on a plane that is cheap to operate, smooth riding and safe. And the new glass cockpits are much safer and more efficient than the gauge filled mechanical glories of yesteryear. Two pilots up front makes for a cheaper ticket than two pilots and a flight engineer. If the glass cockpit allows for two guys to safely do the job of three I'm all for it.

This is truly the great era for air travelers. The nostalgia for the flying experience of yesteryear is a pipe dream. Back in those days the only people flying were the 1 percenters. Joe Sixpack was cramming his family into the station wagon and driving across the country if he wanted to go anywhere.

Margin Of Error > Cé hé sin 04/09/2015 at 16:36

0

Thank you.

Margin Of Error > Kevin Barrett 04/09/2015 at 16:37

0

That's a possibility.

Margin Of Error > Manuél Ferrari 04/09/2015 at 16:37

1

It is a piece of art

Margin Of Error > MultiplaOrgasms 04/09/2015 at 16:38

0

?

MultiplaOrgasms > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 16:52

1

Do I really need to explain my disapproval of this post?

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 16:58

0

Have no fear, just fly with a smaller carrier. They usually operate stuff like this Embraer 145:

Manuél Ferrari > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 17:07

0

if i was a billionaire i would buy one

ranwhenparked > Margin Of Error 04/09/2015 at 17:16

0

Yes, but you have to get pretty far up the bridge to get all the details.

pauljones > Cé hé sin 04/10/2015 at 13:57

0

It's also alleged that Elvis is still alive. That particular said, none of what you mentioned has anything to do with Boeing, a company that itself was trying to create a competitor - and it stopped when it realized the practical difficulties of it.

Jcarr > Margin Of Error 04/12/2015 at 16:24

0

I'm a life-long aviation enthusiast and the 777 (-300ER in particular) is my favorite commercial aircraft. I think it's gorgeous.

That said, the DC-10 is a close second.

Also, I saw the Concorde fly at Oshkosh in the late 90s. Loudest damn thing I've ever heard. Louder than a Harrier hovering.

doodon2whls > Margin Of Error 04/23/2015 at 15:55

1

MMMmmmmm... Dem low-bypass engines...

wafflesnfalafel > SLR999 04/23/2015 at 22:48

0

But that wing - it bends so darn much... still creeps me out.